Elay Cohen is CEO of Sales Hood and former SVP of Sales Productivity at SalesForce. His process is credited from growing the company from 500 million in business to worth more than 3 billion dollars. That’s why Rob Acker, SalesForce CEO endorsed his latest book, Enablement Mastery.
Learn More About Elay Cohen
SalesHood, Cohen's company tackles these issues and corrects problems with best practices. The company allows people to connect, and share experiences on their own results.
Looking for The Full Description of "Happy Ears" And Full Article?
The full piece on why prospects stop returning calls
and happy ears is right here
More Incredible Interviews
Listen To More On The Justin Brady Podcast
Full Transcript of Elay Cohen Interview
This was automatically transcribed. Please contact me in the menu below if you find any problems.
Justin Brady 0:04
I'm a salesperson. I think everybody knows that. But I started my own company. And not until, you know, sales was confusing is heck. And it was terrifying. And it kind of felt like there were. I was juggling three bajillion different things. And my my today's guest, Eli Cohen probably knows a thing or two about that, Eli, thanks for coming on the podcast today. Great to be here. Super honored. Thank you. So you're theco-foundero founder of sales hood, you're a two time author and you're also the former SVP of sales productivity at Salesforce. I think everyone's heard of that.
Your process has been credited for growing the company from $500 million in business to worth more than 3 billion dollars. I'm going to take a wild guess here. You I'm going to assume that's why Rob Acker, the Salesforce CEO endorsed your latest book, you know,
Elay Choen 1:07
Justin Brady 1:09
yeah, I figured that might be the case,
Elay Choen 1:12
Rob Acker. And I worked very closely together over the years, as I did with many executives. And, and you know what, you don't go from 500 million to 3 billion. And so eight years without being really focused and mindful and purposeful about how you're going to get your team's productive, and how you're going to get them being great.
Justin Brady 1:31
So the book is enablement in blah, blah, blah, I can't talk to the enablement mastery, I need to be unable to speak better, I guess today and we're going to get into that I want you to later to tell people how to buy it and that kind of thing. But looking through the book, looking for your profile, you're kind of laser focused and obsessed with how to modernize company's sales processes. And is this also the whole point of sales hood, your company as well?
Elay Choen 1:58
Yeah, so, you know, great, great question.
So we're, we're, we're Our mission is to help companies increase and grow their revenue, right? We want to help people optimize their teams make it more efficient and help them grow faster. Think about Salesforce, right? 500 million to 3 billion sub eight years. That's almost a 10 x revenue growth. What company on the planet doesn't want to get more from their salespeople, right? Make it more efficient, faster. And so yeah, we're when I was at Salesforce, that was my job. You know Marc Benioff, or call me into his office and say, Hey, I know we get our people more productive faster. Let's do it. And then when I left and fatty my company sales, it decided that we're going to build a SAS platform to help companies do it at scale. And now my last book enablement map my book I just finished writing I mean enablement mastery is can it's it's it's the book that explains the company's explains to leaders explained to CEOs how to embrace enablement as a top line priority at the business level.
Justin Brady 2:57
So Well, what does that mean exactly? Because, enablement is not like the, you know, giving your kid too much candy, or so that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about, like, supporting employees, supporting staff supporting sales teams, right?
Elay Choen 3:10
Yeah, well, I want you to think about this. If you're a company, and you're a CEO, and you've got a leadership team, and you've got products, you know, and you're, you're investing so much money to build products, and to go to market with your solutions. And, and you've invested billions of dollars in innovation. And most companies, what they do is they forget to kind of take it to that last stage, like, how are their sales people being trained on actually being able to talk about those products, right, they spend so much money on marketing, but nobody is spending money to enable their people to coach their people to help those people that are actually having the conversations with buyers. And that's what enablement is. It's about connecting organizational processes. So you can get everybody in the company on message saying the same thing so they can see sell more of the products and they can deliver a much better Richard customer experience. Does that make sense?
Justin Brady 4:04
Yeah, it does. I mean, a lot of the seams I want to caution everybody listening because this seems easy to gloss over. And you know, well, okay, train everybody on what the products we have our duh. But I've seen it happen a billion times where the messaging you're talking about everyone getting that common messaging, maintaining their independence and sales process, but common messaging, knowing how to talk about the products the right way.
Elay Choen 4:28
messaging alignment is the heart of organizational readiness and enablement. mastery. messaging. Alignment means this if I've got a core set of values, if I have a central set a pitch, a corporate pitch deck, here's what our brand stands for. The brand itself means something, and how do I get everybody at my company to say the same thing at the brand. So our customers have in our buyers have that consistent experience. It's really, really hard. And it was a big differentiator for us at Salesforce, right Benioff would call them into his office and say, here is our latest corporate pitch deck. And think about it. This is 2005. So Salesforce was not a household name. And the way that we got everybody on message was we have to run around the world, we have to coach them, train them, certify them, sit down with them, they do the presentations, we make sure they got it. So that way, every customer experience every by experience was consistent. And that consistency ultimately drove up. Sales drove up when rates messaging alignment is super, super hard, takes a lot of work. And it takes a commitment from CEOs and from leadership teams to make it a priority.
Justin Brady 5:36
And what are the some of the exact very specific example of not like, maybe we have a CEO or a sales VP? And he's like, I don't, what does that even look like? How do I know if people are off message? I mean, does it does it translate some way specifically, I mean, you know, I can say firsthand, I've seen sales people that are brilliant sales people, and the product was a fit, and then they some of the words they were using in their emails were really weak words. And I'm like, ah, the way you wrote this sentence looks like you just you have doubts about what you can deliver, can you deliver this or not? And he he this individuals like, absolutely, we can deliver, I'm like, then use like, use aggressive words like, you know, don't say try to or hope to just say will, and I see that all the time, people that are very confident come across non confident almost on accident.
Elay Choen 6:31
Funny. Yeah, you know, the choice of words are critical. And what we want to do is we want to, we want to, we want to give our people we want to give our teams the right language, the right tools, we want to give them the right information so they can ultimately have better, richer conversations. And that's across the entire sales process. And it's not just sales people, right? Notice it says enablement mastery, it's not sales enablement mastery, because enablement is something that everyone needs to do. But here's you asked a question. So, so what does it look like an organization that doesn't have enablement as a top priority, an organization that is struggling with messaging, struggling with learning, struggling with coaching ultimately has some very, you know, acute things are going to see some specific things are going to see, sales numbers aren't going to be increasing at the pace that they wanted to increase, they're going to have sales attainment, which means how many of their sales people are hitting quota sales, the distribution of attainment is a metric that most people don't really look at closely. They're going to look at win rates, right? So you could start looking at these sales metrics and the sales key performance indicators, and you can start correlating them to high performing teams. And that's what we're doing it sales it is we're looking at performance of teams, we're seeing what are the teams saying, what are they using it with inside of their sales cycles? How are they winning? And we're helping organizations codify that into a best practice that they can ultimately repeat over and over and over. And, and you know, we did it with resources at Salesforce. Like we threw a boatload of people hundred and 20 people are on it. But that's not normal. Most companies don't have 120 enablement. Coaches on their team. So So you got to figure out how you can do with scale. So sales at my company is video and mobile. And we do peer to peer and social learning. We make it really fun for sales people to practice their pitches to share their wins stories to give each other comments. That way, they can ultimately learn from the best and enablement mastery helps companies build that muscle inside of their organization. And as a culture, and as an ultimate driver of success across all departments.
Justin Brady 8:35
I think another issue I seem to see a lot is when people grow, they have that spurt of growth, they have a good product, they have a good relationship with customers, they have this growth and then they hit this glass ceiling. And one of the solutions that is always that seems to be pushed around is will just knock on more doors. And you know that the same things that work before don't work anymore. Is that also a symptom just a crappy process?
Elay Choen 9:03
Well, I think it's interesting, you know, folks that think they can keep doing the same thing over and over and get different results. It's kind of a cliche thing to say, but, you know, what we want to do is we want to help, you know, companies kind of figure out what is working and stop doing what isn't working, and to do that with some semblance of scale, and then repeat what is working over and over and over, so, you know, yeah, that's, that's, that's the secret of, of enablement, right. enablement is not about doing more of what isn't working, right. Because think about most companies today, when they say they're doing enablement. It's kind of like checkbox enablement. You know, this Yeah. Like, oh, will host a webinar will get the product managers to kind of just walk us through the product. Or, or maybe we'll fly everyone to Vegas, and we'll do this amazing event and everybody's, you know, the only thing they remember their hand over at that point, what we're saying is, enablement is is cadence, it needs to be repetitive and needs to happen. You No, I want to see, enablement happened an hour a day, you know, a half hour a day, you know, a few days a month, like all the time versus just two or three days a year. And it's that repetition in the practice and the constant maniacal focus that, hey, let's not forget to enable our people as we're rolling out products, as we're doing campaigns as we're trying to grow our business. That's what makes a difference between Okay, companies and great companies.
Justin Brady 10:24
So what is the let's let's do something encouraging because I'm going to ask, I'm going to ask something a little bit more discouraging. A little bit. Well, not necessarily discouraging, but more pointed. But what is one thing in your opinion, most sales teams, small and big are doing right? What are they? What do most do quite well? Or what's what's what one area that many of them just don't seem to struggle with?
Elay Choen 10:49
That's a great question. Let me think for a moment. I you know, I think, I think sales organizations in general, they do a good job hitting their hiring numbers, right? they'll hire people, they'll fill the seats up, they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll get people in there. And and when it comes to sales, execution, I think for the most part, when you start getting focused on activities, most organizations will have, you know, the right amount of activities, right, you know, they'll do the right amount of calls, maybe they'll send out the right amount of emails, but that activity if it's the wrong activity, I'm not trying to get discouraging, but i think i think organizations do for the most part, are doing a decent job hiring and for the most part, are doing a decent job kind of trying to get their reps get their salespeople to do more sure do. And I think that's, you know, that's okay, whether they're doing the right thing is is another thing I think, you know, those are things that people are doing well, I think sales organizations when they have a sales process when they've got, you know, a defined playbook I think, and when you have a leader, these are been a lot of a lot of wins. But if and when you have a leader that believes in the playbook, I think you can very quickly get an organization to kind of follow the process. And you'll see magic happen in terms of revenue growth and revenue multipliers. But those are a lot of ifs.
Justin Brady 12:11
Well, I mean, I think one of the things I always see a lot is that sales teams do well, and maybe this is, maybe I'm wrong on this. Maybe it's just that I hang out with some just killer sales teams, I don't know. But one of the things I get is getting in front of the right people, I think most sales people do a good job at that they seem to be able to find the right person, and they seem to be able to do a good job to break into that or find the right person. It's just they do a poor job maintaining that relationship and following up and then I think the other thing they do a poor job is the kind of forget that relationship or that opportunity and let it fizzle.
Elay Choen 12:47
So So, you know, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna just kind of share some insight, I think one would think that a salesperson, successful experienced salesperson would do a great job, kind of getting in the door, you know, doing those activities like I talked about, and, and ultimately getting presumably, to the right person. And, and, but what I'm seeing what I'm seeing I, you know, politely feel like that's not necessarily happening. I think when you when you look at the numbers, and you say, well, what's the percentage of sales people that are actually hitting quota you be surprised that we're really living in a world right now, we're sales organizations are really just at about 30%, 30%
of sales people are hitting quota globally, right? That's the that's the Universalist and the number. Is it improving? So we need to figure out how can we get our sales people to start hitting quota so we can get the value foreign investments and, and your questions, a great one, you know, what are they doing? Well, what are they not doing? Well, what they're not doing well, is they're actually thinking there at the right person, where they might, there's, there's, there's a concept called Happy years. And I love happiness as a concept. Because when I'm selling, if you're the buyer, and we're on a conversation, like Justin, you know, like, like, You're telling me you want to buy and it's great. And you're saying, Yes, I'm good to go. You know, what sales people tend to do is they love happy ears. And they'll and they'll just say, Great, they'll take the notes, I'll send you a follow on email, but they're not going to ask the hard questions.
Justin Brady 14:14
Oh, they don't want to didn't want to sour the relationship?
Elay Choen 14:17
Yeah, like so. So tell me, why do you want to buy now? And and what happens if you don't buy and what problem are we solving? Who else in the organization really cares about this problem? Where it is? Where does this problem fit in the pecking order of other problems in the organization? There are layers and layers and layers and layers of questions that can be asked that our sales people will ask one or two questions, and then they won't go deep. And then they'll ultimately Miss solving the key problem and really identifying who the organization cares most. And that's the person that's going to sign and so you end up having sales people saying all they weren't ready to buy, well, the person you were talking to wasn't ready because they're not power. So we'll get in the door with speak to some of the... we won't be curious enough and get to the right person. But we can enable people to be better at doing that.
Justin Brady 15:06
So the reason that people because you know, sometimes you have a contact that just goes icy and stopped returning emails, are they just trying to fade in the background, or they just, you know, I'm always like, wrong contact, wrong time. But the reason that this happens, I think, fairly often to sales people is because a happy ears, they didn't ask the right, they didn't ask the hard questions up front, and they pay handsomely for it in all this waste of time.
Elay Choen 15:30
Absolutely. I think the more we can get our teams to understand what happens, what happy ears looks like, when we're talking to our buyers. And the more that we can, we can have kind of, the, the mindset of, of training our people to, to help each other, right? So there's some great exercises we can do with our teams, right? We can, we can have people practice role playing conversations, right? That's enablement. We can have people record their wins, stories learn from each other, and they can share examples where deals did get stuck. And they can actually talk openly about these happier examples shy because we want people to avoid happy years. And so there's an example there's one slice of the sales process that when we hit a deal, or we work a deal, and when we identify that our sales people are really bad, asking great questions. Hopefully, that makes sense.
Justin Brady 16:23
Elay Choen 16:24
and they and they ultimately, and they ultimately do have happy years. If we could diagnose that, then what we want to do is prioritize that as a problem. Because we know if we can fix that problem, guess what, our reps when rates will double our sales people be more effective, more people hit quota. And that's what enablement is about. What we want to do is you want to identify what are the top problems we can solve for the organization. let's identify on this document. And then let's build a program that makes everyone aware of the problem. And then let's coach and train people, then the next reinforce, then let's celebrate successes. Like that's a whole enablement process map that most people just think, Oh, my God, we have a happier problem. Great. Let's send an email and let people know that how to avoid
Justin Brady 17:06
and now we're done. Let's check that box.
Elay Choen 17:09
But that's it. Right? That's the difference.
Justin Brady 17:11
You're absolutely right. What? Okay, so here's the more pointed thing in me. I don't know you can call you can call out the end of it. Not, not by name. But you can call out the personality that does this or whatever you want. But what is that slam your head on the desk repeatedly issue that almost every department is dealing with are many of them or their leaders that they're dealing with, right? Yeah, like, what is that? Like? What is that slam your head on the desk? People? People say, Oh, yeah, you like, I've got that covered? Or Oh, yeah, you know, whatever. We're dealing with it this way, we've got it under control. What's that thing? You just feel like you're bashing your head against a brick wall that people continually what is that pet peeve you have.
Elay Choen 17:56
what I continuously here is people say when it comes to enablement. And when it comes to the sales organization, you know, they'll say, yeah, we're, we got it, we're doing enablement already. And, and, and we hear that a lot. And then and then we start asking questions about what, what are you doing, and how are you doing it? And and, and then we take a step back, and we start asking them to share some data, right? Well, let's, let's talk about the impact on the business. So how are your team's doing today, so, so the thing that the thing and so a lot of organizations will will kind of jump in and start training their people coaching their people, but they're training and coaching them on the wrong things, right, they'll train and coach them on a sales process. But really, what they need to do is double down on happy years. Sure, right. And so I guess kind of, just to kind of summarize, you know, the thing that I see over and over is, organizations are solving the wrong problems, and they're not getting to the root of the problem of how they're going to ultimately drive dramatic improvements in growth, if they want to grow the business, they need to figure out what's working, and then they need to go solve that problem. And and so when organizations are making investments in, in product in marketing and sales teams, when they don't understand the why they're making the investments. And when they're not documenting the specific metrics and KPIs that they want. They're not they're not going to actually achieve their goals. And we see companies spending billions and billions of dollars on learning systems and learning programs. And nobody is bothering to ask the question, why are we rolling this out? What impact does it have? What priority is it solving? How are we going to measure the success? Sure, how are we going to how are we going to share successes on an ongoing basis. And, and that's the frustrating thing because, you know, organizations can spend, you know, a fraction of what they're spending on right now and developing their people and have a much bigger impact if all they did was focus it and focus more people on the same thing, and focus on the problems that make a difference. And that's what not me write the book. I just felt like we got to get the word out, we got to help CEOs begin to prioritize their investments better in their people.
Justin Brady 20:07
So, you know, there are a few more questions that I want to get to maybe if we have time. But there are two main questions we always ask on here. And the first one is, you know, people tend to look at you, and you know, you What was it to your the 2011 top executive Marc Benioff recognized you as that I think it was the former senior vice sales, but sales force, of course, the book all the stuff you have going on. I think people tend to look at people like you and say, Oh, well, Eli doesn't know failure. You know, he hasn't, he hasn't gone through failure. He hasn't faced planet so he doesn't, he doesn't get it. Well, that's not true. So we always give offer the opportunity on this podcast. What? What's the moment you just totally face planet? And how did you take that moment in, spin it into something good later?
Elay Choen 20:53
I appreciate the question. And, and, you know, I'm going to share a story from Salesforce. And I wrote about it in my book. And in my book, The title is MIT the title of this section is called missing the C suite with metrics. And, and so I'm going to share the story. I'm not going to read from the book. But I...
Justin Brady 21:14
...I could play chimes every time you turn the page.
Elay Choen 21:18
And you know what this is, it's a fabulous story. And actually, the reason why this story is interesting is because it ultimately became the inspiration for me to create my company sales hood, it ultimately gave me the power to go in and try and change the world and help every company do enablement the right way. And, and here's what happened. It's 20. So you know, yeah, you're right. I was 2011 Executive of the Year, you know, you know, we're, you know, recognized by Benioff and listen on cloud nine, right? Had you ever told me that my, if I just never would have imagined that would have happened, it was amazing,
Justin Brady 21:55
Or... Sales Cloud Nine,
Elay Choen 21:58
So so. So a year later, it's, it's the summer of 2012, and I'm invited to to Hawaii and Mark did, you know, kind of annual leadership off sides with the top hundred executives, and, you know, we, each person has their time on stage where you're going through your business, and, and, you know, yeah, I remember I'm Executive of the Year and so there I am standing up. And then within three or four minutes of me presenting, I realized that the information I was presenting was not aligned with Mark and, and, and, and yeah, no, I it was like, it got hotter as the moment
I remember, I was wearing shorts in London shirt, and there's little to sweat started pouring through through my shirt. And, and, but I knew at that moment of time, this is, but I couldn't, I couldn't escape because their aim and and what I was specifically missing. Remember what I said, missing metrics with the C suite. I wasn't able to answer the why, you know, Mark had a very specific question. He said, hey, you're doing all this training, your doing all this learning, you're doing all this certifications and coaching, can you show me a dashboard, a summary report, I want to see all my teams by cloud, I want to see the data, I want to see the correlation between performance and the activity. I want to know if your hundred and 20 people are making a difference. Can you show that to me? And, and, and I didn't have it, right. And I started fumbling, and I will mark, you know, we, we can't keep up with it anymore. You know, the old days of certifying everyone, and coaching everyone in the old days of running around on planes. And he's like, he didn't want to have any of these, like, No, no, stop talking, why don't you have this information? How can you continue to run your team this way, without being data driven. And, and it was hard, right? It was, it was a hard hour for me to be up there. And I remember at the end, you know, the HR leader came over, she gave me a big hug. And, and, you know, ultimately, Mark and I hugged it out as well. And, and, but it was the right message to the organization at the time, because we were growing 3 billion. And we needed to, you know, mark the, to explain to the team that, hey, we need to be data driven with our approaches. What worked in the old way isn't going to work in the new way. Now, I felt beat up, right. It was a low point for me complete low point for me. And, and, and, and went lower. Right. It was it was like, I was a, how did I fail? How did I miss it. And, and there was a moment, you know, a few months later, where I kind of snapped out of the snap out of the bottom and I was able to pull myself out and I was able, I was able to kind of pull my I left Salesforce after that, you know, about five, six months later, you know, I kind of just felt like, you know, what, maybe this isn't right. You know, and, and, but, but I but I anchored myself around that feeling like, what was wrong. And what I realized was, you know, us as leaders when we're doing enablement, we need to be prepared to be able to answer the why, and be able to show to our leadership teams and our CEOs on demand, they need to see a picture of what's working, what's not working, how are people doing, how are we developing, what are our investments look like. And that became the beginning of my, of my company sales hood. So from that moment of appear, you know, embarrassment, and fear and sweat in Hawaii with the leadership team, and like thinking like, you know, that, that that Fred Flintstone and when you're getting smaller and smaller, it was worse, but but you know what, that's power and, and that was power for me. And it motivated me to kind of start my company.
Justin Brady 25:21
Those are what I mean, those are what I internally refer to as fraud moments, it's you start saying to yourself, Am I a fraud? Did I eat here accidentally? Did I fool the right people at the right time? Is this the end of everything? Will I be homeless in the, you know, on the street in less than a month, that's when I started, that's when I start circling the drain. But I think what you said, because I've had those moments, obviously, more than I can count, but what you said was, there was one key and you glossed right through it. But I want to I want to go back to it briefly. You said I snapped out of it. And I think so many times when people hit one of those moments, I guess my message would be, and maybe this is yours, too. I don't know everyone hits those moments. But the reason the successful individuals force themselves to snap out of it.
Elay Choen 26:10
I was fortunate that I was able to the snapping out of it was the clarity of thought. And rather than, rather than feeling like a failure, I started thinking, Well, wait a minute, let's, let's go back in time. And, you know, five, six months later, I ended up opening up an email folder of all the thank you emails from the thousands and thousands of sales people and sales managers from Salesforce, thanking me for all the great work we did over the years. And I reminded myself of what we did, and, and, and, and I sat there, I remember I was on a train from from Vancouver from Vancouver to Seattle, I did a speaking gig and I was on a train at less Salesforce already, and I'm reading these emails and, and, and, and, you know, it was, it was extremely emotional for me, because then I realized, like, Oh, my God, I need to create this energy, right? Had I bottled up this energy had, I had been able to, to the energy meaning that the gratitude and all the goodness that we did, I just didn't know how to how to visualize all the amazing impact that we had. And that was sales sales. It was born in that exact moment. And, and it was because I was able to snap out of it. And, and, and I got an I snapped out of it, by being inspired by people's ideas, and remembering all the good things that we did in the impacts that we had on people's lives. And, and that vision and and, and that the essence of what sales said was, is what we're still doing today. So just sales people be the best they can be.
Justin Brady 27:43
Just a few minutes left. And I wanted to ask what There's another question we ask everybody. And that is, what is that go to? When your team struggling when they're stuck? What is the way you and stick them? What is that way you help them to solve bigger problems?
Elay Choen 27:56
You know, we got to get curious. And so when, when somebody is when a team when someone I'm sitting in front of me is is struggling with something, you know, I immediately I used to be the mindset, okay, let me try and solve it for you. But But the way that the way what's worked for me is, let's start asking some questions. Let me get curious. Let's figure out what's going on. Let me figure out what's working. Why don't you show me some of the things maybe draw something like like, as long as you can, you can, as long as we can have a conversation about it. And it's the it's the art of curiosity in a in a collaborative way, as long as the person who's being asked the questions doesn't feel like this is being an interrogation. So the right questions need to be asked needs to be in a very compassionate way. And they need to understand that they shouldn't get defensive. We can usually solve a problem with curiosity. And to me, that's my default. Let me start asking some questions before I solution.
Justin Brady 28:51
That's very awesome. No, I like that. That's, that's a really good solution, then that's an awesome place to leave it, Eli, what is the new book and how do people by it
Elay Choen 29:01
Thank you very much. The new book is enablement mastery comes out January 8, 2019. I'm stoked. I'm holding one in my hand right now. Looking forward to having everyone read it. And share with me your thoughts. You can get it on Amazon. Amazon. com, the book is there. And you know what enablement mastery. com is also a website for the book where you can find it. There's some great endorsements and some great videos there so you can get some insight into the book and super grateful for the opportunity to be here.
Justin Brady 29:29
And the other thing if people want to reach out to you they want to connect they want to learn more they want to get more resources where do they go to do that
Elay Choen 29:37
you know the LinkedIn is a universal business network so if you if you if you you know, if you if you connect with me on LinkedIn and personalized a note and just say, Hey, I heard the podcast absolutely I'll connect with you you can connect with me there I'll give my email is fine. Feel free to to email me or text me LinkedIn, whatever works, Twitter works do Eli Cohen, the co
Justin Brady 30:03
founder and CEO of sales hood. Thank you very, very much for joining us all today. Appreciate it.
Elay Choen 30:10
Justin. Thanks so much. This was an honor to be on your podcast and I hope everyone really loves the new book and thanks for having me.
Hey, you should read these articles
Don't be a failure hypocrite!
There Are No Creative Jobs or Industries